0:08
The Duke of Windsor, Edward the eighth King of England for a little more than 10 months in 1936 was born at White Lodge which one sorry, on the 23rd of June at 94, son of the future Georgia the fifth and Queen Mary, great grandson of Queen Victoria and he remembers Queen Victoria, great, solemn, somewhat remote presence, queen, Empress, head of a vast international royal family.
0:37
The other Duke was born both the actuality and the idea behind the words the British Empire were at their zenith, Queen Victoria had been on the throne as long as almost anybody could remember. Her son, Edward the seventh, whom the Duke remembers with great affection not as a Monique but as an indulgent grandfather gave his name to another age, not so grand, but perhaps more golden.
1:03
So the Duke of Windsor is the last living royal contemporary of that great imperial past.
1:11
And like his father before him, the Duke went into the Navy at the age of 12. When his grandfather died in 19 110, and his father became king, he became the heir apparent. He was invested in Prince of Wales at Carnarvon, on the same spot, the same month, and much the same ring as he called it, as his great nephew Charles was last year. Then he went off to Oxford. Then came what he describes as his real education, the First World War, not so much the mud and blood of Flanders, he saw plenty of it, but the mixing with men of many different countries of many ranks and from many different backgrounds.
1:53
Now, because of the great eye opening and mind awakening which the war had been for him, he would have liked to have branched out into public work when the war was over. And as I said he did with many much fated world tours, including Canada and the United States. But his father had very limited notions of what was proper for a Prince of Wales to do. And since much of this was ceremonial and formal, the still young Prince of Wales found life somewhat frustrating. But nevertheless, in the 20s, he became more and more respected for the work he put in for the range of public interests he displayed for the nakki hand for getting on terms with people the friendly curiosity, he obviously showed in what everybody in all walks of life was doing. And because he obviously loved fun, while it was writing in steeplechase is all dancing to a jazz band, he became more and more popular, the notion grew that this prince was somehow the people’s prince, and the more so since though he kept up a tremendous round of visits in their salon Mala Hong Kong, the life of the court, the ceremonial side of being royal, did not seem to attract him in the least.
3:11
But on the early 30s, the pencil is being widely discussed for his interest in social problems, poverty, unemployment,
3:20
he was known to abroad businessman and industrialists together to see what can be done to get the country going again. newspapers printed photographs of his drawn face as he looked on slums in Lancashire, queues of unemployed miners in South Wales, and is a jack Ulation This is damnable something must be done about it was quoted and re quoted throughout the country. But let him deal with these matters in his own words in the programme,
3:48
and when I talked to the Duke of Windsor, I talked also to the Duchess.
3:54
The Duke first met Mrs. Wallace Warfield Simpson on a hunting weekend in 1931. And as you relate it afterwards, she had a heavy cold, and they hardly exchanged more than a few sentences. It was several years before they met again, that by the time he became king, on the 20th of January 1936, he’d fallen in love with her. He made up his mind that he wanted to share his life with her. And he resolved that if he could not marry her as kitten, he gave up the throne.
4:24
The record of his discussions with the government of the day on this subject are now part of history. After several tense, anguish days, the ultimate decision came December the 10th. The Duke sign the instrument of abdication gave up the throne for the woman he loved.
4:44
following June, he married Mrs. Wallace Warfield Simpson, who had by then obtained a divorce.
4:52
my conversation with the Duke and Duchess took place at their house in Paris and the wider Bitcoin 20 minutes by car from the centre of the city.
5:00
First, as you would hear the Duke and Duchess and I had a talk, sitting in the beautiful Salon of this handsome house, lay side by side, myself opposite. Then the Duchess left us and the Duke and I talked, moving into the library and settling down their wonderful room, high panels, lines of leather bound books, broad fireplace, roaring fire, and two of the four pugs present.
5:28
The Duke and Duchess live in this house in Paris in the week, most weekends, they go down to their middle house, 45 minutes southwest of Paris and the country at jif. Sea Rivette, they spend April, May and June in the United States, and usually a couple of weeks in Spain, and Portugal.
5:49
The Duke and Duchess are tremendously interested in young people absolutely fascinated by modern youth. So I began by asking them, now you both seen many generations of young people grow up? What do you make of young people today? I think they look like they’re having very little fun. I think they are. parents aren’t, of course. But the youngsters are.
00:08 – 05:49
The Duke of Windsor, born in 1894 as the son of future King George V and Queen Mary, remembers Queen Victoria and the grand imperial past of the British Empire. He joined the Navy at 12 and was invested as Prince of Wales in 1911. The First World War was a significant education for him as he interacted with men of different backgrounds and nationalities. In the 1920s, he became respected for his public work and was popularly known as the people’s prince. He took an interest in social problems such as poverty and unemployment and even met with businessmen and industrialists to discuss how to get the country going again. His discussions with the government on his desire to marry Mrs. Wallace Warfield Simpson and his subsequent abdication are now part of history. The Duke and Duchess live in Paris but spend their weekends at their house in the country and their summers in the United States.
05:49 – 09:05 TRANSCRIPT
So I began by asking them, now you both seen many generations of young people grow up? What do you make of young people today?
I think they look like they’re having very little fun.
I think they are. parents aren’t, of course. But the youngsters are.
Where do you think the parents tried to stop them? Now? How can they use this completely independent? mean financially independent? No, I mean, mentally independent and their actions and stuff? I don’t know about their finances. I suppose they work. But I think they’re independent, much more than we were when we were young.
But on the whole losing, it’s a good thing.
It’s I think it’s a good thing doesn’t matter. You know, it’s experience for them, isn’t it? Then I think they’ll turn around become different from normal. I don’t think they’re abnormal. Now. You shocked what you see today. I’m not a bit I’m interested in it. I like very much being in the red light in front of the drugstore, shelves. elisee this marvellous time.
You go around Paris quite a lot on your own looking at life.
Well, I’m always going someplace, and the streets are always filled with life. And so I looking at him all the time not reading a book in the car.
People you’re amused and interested to see the people going in and out of the truck, whatever you want to happen in the house.
I don’t think they’d want to direct, I think there was people I don’t know, I might see on the street that I might think be amusing to have, because the ones I know do come, but I try not to mix them up with too many of our age, because I think that suppresses them a bit. But I just think they’re very good for older people to have young people. It’s the younger people be kind enough to offer us with their presence.
What can the older people stand the younger people can do, but the general tendency of young women is close. manuscripts, for instance, what do you think of the minister?
Well, I think he said, You know what you’re getting down to?
Number two, many, but they got good underpinnings. All right.
But apart from how young people dress, and there’s a question on how young people behave.
And I have a great many young people come here, because that makes me feel young. And I tried to make him have a good time. Yeah. And I think they behave extremely well. I mean, they behave like we didn’t we, and they may dance in the hall. There. They may do little dances, I don’t know and show them to me, and we all try. I think they’ve extremely well.
You don’t have any feeling of young people somehow going downhill. And at
all the ones that we see anyway, short while ago, we’re talking about being with it. Now the Duchess and I are a little past the age of being what they call with it today. But don’t one minute. And imagine that we went with it when we were younger. In fact, I was so much with it that that was one of the big criticisms that was levelled against me by the older generation.
05:49 – 09:05 SUMMARY
In this conversation, two elderly individuals discuss their observations of young people today. They believe that young people are not having as much fun as they should be, although they themselves are interested in observing them. They also think that young people are more financially and mentally independent than they were at their age. They do not see young people as abnormal, and they think that it is good for them to gain experiences. The conversation also touches on young people’s behavior, and the elderly individuals believe that they behave well and are not going downhill. They also talk about the importance of having young people around and how it makes them feel young. The conversation ends with a reflection on how they were once criticized for being “with it” when they were younger.
09:05 – 11:37 TRANSCRIPT
Can you throw your mind back to the first time you met the Duke?
Yes, I met him at Melton Mowbray he was hunting there and I was asked to that same house but then I met him there.
Can you remember the first thing he said do or the first? Remember the last thing he said?
When you first met the do, did he strike you as being a very conventional kind of Englishman or as a very different kind of English.
He struck me as being wizard at that time.
What kinds of things now made you feel that about him?
I think he was ahead of his time. I think he had lots of bap and I think he’s very much ahead of his time. I think he wanted to establish things that were a little not ready for them. Really
perhaps not ready for it though. But they’ve never anything new came along. I was wanting to try it out.
Always. You felt that when you met him when he was Prince of Wales that he had a, a different and forward looking conception of what a Prince of Wales ought to be?
Yes, I really didn’t think so I thought he was very interested in everything was going on in the people and made a lot of trips. And I thought that was very interesting. Not only ceremonials, but to go down among the people, which to me as an American is what I’m used to people doing and I thought that was pretty clever.
But as he got into bad habits,
he has two bad habits. He has smoking which I disapprove very much. And then he has golfing which leaves me alone the radio.
When you say you disapprove of smoking, you mean any kind of smoking you objector. Yes, any kind, it’s not that perhaps he doesn’t put his cigarettes out or something like that. But
that’s a little dangerous. They slide off the ashtrays, tips, and again, car strains that are of putting it in. I think it’s dirty habit smoking.
Doctor told me the other day that it was better to smoke marijuana than to smoke ordinary tobacco. I’ve never tried marijuana, and I never intend to. So I’m going to stick to my
ordinary, and you’re going to stick to your golf.
So long as I can.
You really do enjoy it.
I’m very, very poor player, but I died very much from the exercise. What about the endless cups of tea? That about having
endless cups of tea, but not cups? Really? Soup plates? Or tea cups? This law?
Who drinks the tea? You Oh.
09:05 – 11:37 SUMMARY
The interviewee recalls her first meeting with the Duke at Melton Mowbray while he was hunting. She describes him as a forward-looking person who wanted to establish things that were not yet ready. She also mentions that he was interested in everything that was going on and made a lot of trips, which impressed her. However, she disapproved of his smoking and golfing habits. She thinks smoking is a dirty habit and dangerous, while she enjoys golf for the exercise. They also discuss the Duke’s habit of drinking tea, which she clarifies are actually served in soup plates, and she drinks the tea herself.
09:05 – 12:32 TRANSCRIPT
Can you throw your mind back to the first time you met the Duke?
Yes, I met him at Melton Mowbray he was hunting there and I was asked to that same house but then I met him there.
Can you remember the first thing he said do or the first? Remember the last thing he said?
When you first met the do, did he strike you as being a very conventional kind of Englishman or as a very different kind of English.
He struck me as being wizard at that time.
What kinds of things now made you feel that about him?
I think he was ahead of his time. I think he had lots of bap and I think he’s very much ahead of his time. I think he wanted to establish things that were a little not ready for them. Really
perhaps not ready for it though. But they’ve never anything new came along. I was wanting to try it out.
Always. You felt that when you met him when he was Prince of Wales that he had a, a different and forward looking conception of what a Prince of Wales ought to be?
Yes, I really didn’t think so I thought he was very interested in everything was going on in the people and made a lot of trips. And I thought that was very interesting. Not only ceremonials, but to go down among the people, which to me as an American is what I’m used to people doing and I thought that was pretty clever.
But as he got into bad habits,
he has two bad habits. He has smoking which I disapprove very much. And then he has golfing which leaves me alone the radio.
When you say you disapprove of smoking, you mean any kind of smoking you objector. Yes, any kind, it’s not that perhaps he doesn’t put his cigarettes out or something like that. But
that’s a little dangerous. They slide off the ashtrays, tips, and again, car strains that are of putting it in. I think it’s dirty habit smoking.
Doctor told me the other day that it was better to smoke marijuana than to smoke ordinary tobacco. I’ve never tried marijuana, and I never intend to. So I’m going to stick to my
ordinary, and you’re going to stick to your golf.
So long as I can.
You really do enjoy it.
I’m very, very poor player, but I died very much from the exercise. What about the endless cups of tea? That about having
endless cups of tea, but not cups? Really? Soup plates? Or tea cups? This law?
Who drinks the tea? You Oh. Have you got any things between you that you do disagree about that? You have strong differences of opinion about perhaps food or people? Anything?
hours,
hours? What you mean by that?
Well, I mean, I like to stay up very like I do. And I like to get up very early.
I don’t like to get up.
So we have hours with that works itself out. And then we’re a little late for things and I’m absolutely on the dark. Everybody says they know I’m gonna be the first person to arrive at the dinner party. Is
there a little bit like? You both like reading? So I,
I read all the time because I didn’t sleep I’m terrible sleeper. I don’t say that what I read is very educational. Because in the middle of the night, it’s always hard to read something very serious. So I read dozens of detective stories, mystery stories.
09:05 – 12:32 SUMMARY
The interviewee recalls the first time she met the Duke at Melton Mowbray and thought he was a “wizard” who was ahead of his time. She admired how he was interested in people and made trips to visit them. However, she disapproved of his smoking and golfing habits. She also mentions their differing sleeping habits, with her preferring to stay up late and wake up early, while he does not like waking up early. They both enjoy reading, with her reading mostly detective and mystery stories due to her trouble sleeping.
12:32 – 15:12 TRANSCRIPT
Did you ever think of having a career yourself?
Well, I was offered a very strange thing once years ago, and I wish I’d taken it up is when they first had that tubing for buildings. And I was offered to go around selling it. My mathematics weren’t quite good enough to accept that I
don’t think you really thought it might have been a good idea.
I think it would have been just like it’s on every building, every building is put up by that tubing now. But you
think that it’s quite a good thing for women to have careers?
I do. Indeed, I like to be head of an advertising agency, yourself. Because you’ve got lots of things to think up to sell a product and so forth. I’d like that very much.
You don’t think that being the head of such a business has somewhat de feminising effect on women
at all? I don’t see why should I think they have to use their femininity in business.
I think on the continent of Europe, I think they there are relatively few women go into business. But I think many more are going into business in Britain with that, right?
Oh, I think so. As you don’t you don’t think ma’am that women have suffered somewhat over the last 30 years by being too competitive with men that they’ve lost something of their essential character and charm
No, I don’t think so. Really. I know got many women in business and I don’t think they have it all.
Afternoon abdicated sir. You had two jobs and you’re in rapid succession.
I was appointed governor of the Bahamas. Occupied government has now sold for almost five years.
How did you enjoy getting out man,
I liked it very much wonderful climate interesting reward is being very rewarding. I ran a canteen to canteens there for the RAF. And when they were leaving, they were going to give me a present. So the dude knows that I’m speechless. I’m speechless in front of anything. So he’s, he had to give the secret away. He told me that he said they’re going to give you a silver box and I thought they wanted to be a surprise, but I knew that you wouldn’t be able to open your mouth when they presented it. So I warned you. And what happened? Well, I said fewer simple word.
Would you like to have gone on and added another job after that? So as I
offered my services if they were acquired and never gotten a job
I have to do to had a job this day much better much
in those days that 25 years ago.
I think he could have done something.
Why didn’t you get a job? Do you think?
Hard to say? Most of the people I think prevented me are underground. Now.
12:32 – 15:12 SUMMARY ONE
The conversation touches on various topics. When asked about having a career herself, the speaker mentions a missed opportunity to sell tubing for buildings. She also expresses an interest in heading an advertising agency, without believing that femininity should be used in business. The speaker discusses her time as governor of the Bahamas, running canteens for the RAF, and receiving a silver box as a gift. When asked if she would have liked another job after that, she says she offered her services but never got a job, possibly due to people underground preventing her.
12:32 – 15:12 SUMMARY TWO
The conversation includes the following points:
- The speaker was offered a job selling tubing for buildings, but didn’t take it due to lack of math skills.
- She thinks it’s a good thing for women to have careers, and would like to be the head of an advertising agency.
- She doesn’t think that being a successful businesswoman requires using femininity.
- There are more women going into business in Britain compared to the continent of Europe.
- The speaker enjoyed being the governor of the Bahamas and running canteens for the RAF.
- She was speechless when presented with a silver box as a gift.
- She would have liked to continue working after her governorship ended but never got a job, possibly due to people preventing her from doing so.
15:12 – 18:35 TRANSCRIPT
Talking about young people around talking about old people, older people say that the really great problem for them is loneliness.
There’s no problems. A man alone is always an empty seat at every dinner table for the extra man. But woman alone is quite a different. When she’s older, she may be terribly rich, because her husband’s died and left a lot of money. But what is she going to do? Who’s going to take her out to dinner? How much time is she going to spend sitting alone, unless she’s going to entertain a great deal. And then most of our friends are probably in the same. Probably widows too. You see, then the great man hunt has to go on to get someone to come to dinner and sit next to these people.
The Duchess is on Mrs. Buchanan, Merriman, who live to 100 years and three months, lived in Washington. She was originally from Baltimore. And somebody said, best Why don’t you move back to Baltimore? Because you could look up all your old friends. They said, look them up. You mean Tiger Mom? Is a wonderful lady.
Duchess What is the secret of keeping? looking young? No, no,
I’m not secret. I think happiness is a great see secret to how you feel and look perhaps leaving that happy
when you set me up very answer to.
Well, I’m very happy.
I didn’t ask him what part of the United States you came from that you would consider as your home Maryland,
the wealthy Maryland. Line one off it was the governor of Maryland.
I always consider myself a Southerner by marriage.
Is the one part of the United Kingdom that you feel more attached to than another
in Britain? Oh, yes, I think Sunningdale I think that’s part of Britain’s great affection poll.
Do you feel that in some ways the Americans have got something to teach the British and the British have got something to teach the Americans?
I think they both have something to teach each other radio I think
what what do you think that the British might learn from the Americans?
Movement pap.
And the what do you think the Americans might learn from the British?
How to speak nicely?
I think that a lot of American Express has crept into the English language,
of course that you speak with a bit of an American accent accent
says but I don’t know. I got it for me if
you have any regrets when you look back on your life?
Oh, about certain things. Yes, I wish it could have been different. But I mean, I’m extremely happy and naturally have had some hard times but who hasn’t? So they will just have to learn to live with that. But I have great fun.
I read a lot of fun.
15:12 – 18:35 SUMMARY
The Duchess discusses the issue of loneliness among older people, noting that it is a greater problem for women as they may have lost their spouse and have fewer options for socializing. She mentions a woman who lived to 100 years and three months and the difficulties she faced in finding companionship. The Duchess attributes her own youthful appearance to her happiness, and she considers Maryland her home in the United States. She believes that Americans and British people have something to learn from each other, with the British possibly learning movement and the Americans learning how to speak nicely. The Duchess admits to some regrets in life but overall has had great fun and enjoys reading.
18:35 – 20:58 TRANSCRIPT
I remember you were saying in your book that both you and the duke would have liked to have had children, for instance? Yes,
I think that’s great. Because then you learn so much more and so forth. Because makes you lonely. Sometimes if you’re, we, we have got a lot of friends and that helps us enormously. But people in a mag I suppose to have been into are really friends with their children. Before they used to be a sort of former relationship between parents and children. Now they’re all sort of friends with each other, not scared of each other. I think that’s awfully nice.
Now how that come about, do you think I think the parents just become very intelligent, your relationship with your father, sir. You were obviously devoted to him, and he was very good father. But what’s the kind of rapport between you that the Duchess is describing?
None at all. We were brought up very strictly my father was a great disciplinarian. And in those days, as opposed to today, there was an old adage which said, children are to be seen and not heard. Sometimes when my father admonished me for something that I’ve done, that my dad boy, you will always remember who you are. So I used to think, but now who am I? No answer.
Parents now are friends with their children’s it’s more of a friendship and a mother and father children relationship and that’s why I think it goes off it well.
In your autobiography, you wrote that you always found the Duke somehow remote, aloof, I think is the word you use something mysterious about him. Do you think it has to do with what we’re talking about? I think
it has a great deal to do with that. And I also think that he is still aloof in a way because he he decides everything voice says it to see whereas I just go ahead.
I don’t consider myself a loser
or not to me. No, I think he reconsiders i It’s out before I have time to think and I think he thinks before he speaks which is very good. Maybe it’s
sometimes when I don’t don’t agree with you.
18:35 – 20:58 SUMMARY
In this conversation, the Duchess and the interviewer discuss the issue of loneliness among older people, particularly women who may become rich widows but lack companionship. The Duchess attributes her own youthful appearance to happiness, and she considers herself a Southerner by marriage. She believes that both Americans and British people have things to learn from each other. The conversation then turns to the topic of parent-child relationships, with the Duchess suggesting that parents today are more likely to be friends with their children than in the past. The interviewer asks the Duke about his relationship with his father, which was strict and formal, and the Duchess remarks that the Duke is still somewhat aloof, although she sees this as a positive trait.
20:58 – 25:50 TRANSCRIPT
When the Duchess had gone, I followed the Duke into the library. As I walked under the Prince of Wales, his standard from St. George’s Chapel Windsor, hanging down over the hall from the balustrade of the staircase. I passed by the table, on which lies the red despatch box, bearing in gold letters, the words, the king was asked open by a king nearly 35 years ago to take out the abdication document, which had been prepared for him to sign on December the 10th 1936. When I talked to the Duke on his own, we went on rather a different range of topics on affairs of state on statesman he’d met, though we talked also as you Yeah, about personal matters, its parents his upbringing, hobbies, Steeplechasing, his golf. We began with his attitude to the duty and role of being a king. How would you see the monarchy today is as an institution?
Well, I think it’s a it’s a great, great institution, but the monarchy has to change. With the times we’ll go back to the days of my great grandmother, Queen Victoria, who changed the image of the monarchy, from the rather frivolous, dissolute times of what she described as her wicked ankles. widowhood struck her when she was comparatively young at the age of 40. And he lived at court and the atmosphere became one of mourning, and austerity, which she maintained until her death. You will recall that there were even great criticisms that she didn’t show ourselves more. She wouldn’t have shot herself because she said, people only want to see me in my great grief. My grandfather changed at all. During the nine years that he was king. He’d been the leader of, of the Society of Britain and all the gay life, which is now called the Edwardian era. It was a horse racing. He was fortunate enough to win the derby horse race three times for the grand national ones in the same year Dhabi. And he was seen a great deal around the country and was very popular. My father was always quiet a man, great king, and a great rain. But life had caught again, shall we say, became more subdued. When it came to my turn, during the last 10 months, um, that matter of days, I wasn’t going to change, a great deal. But I could see, although a great believer in tradition, great believer in the ceremonial which is part of the monarchy, that there was some outmoded ceremonials which could be dispensed with. In other words, all I wanted to do, and all I meant to do was to open the windows a little and let in some fresh air. After I left, my brother had also a great rain was a very popular Monique. I think he tended more to follow in the footsteps of our father. After his untimely death, early death, tragic death. My niece became the queen and bear in mind all the great changes that have taken place in these last two decades since the last war I think that monarchy could not possibly be in better hands than it is today.
You remember Queen Victoria at all?
Yes, very dimly. I was six years old when she died. She was always a very serious figure to be, I think that was called a shadowy figure in my recollection, is to never it. Windsor and Osborne, Balmoral.
And Edward, the seventh son, oh, yes,
I remember him much better. He was always very genial with his grandchildren. And we’d like to escape to what we used to call the big house and salary away from the parental discipline.
20:58 – 25:50 SUMMARY
The narrator follows the Duke into the library, passing by the table on which lies the red despatch box bearing the abdication document that the Duke was asked to sign in 1936. The Duke and the narrator discuss various topics such as the monarchy and the role of a king. The Duke believes that the monarchy is a great institution but needs to change with the times. He talks about the changes brought about by his great grandmother, Queen Victoria, and his grandfather, King Edward VII. He also discusses his own reign and the changes he wanted to make during his brief tenure as king. The Duke remembers Queen Victoria and King Edward VII, whom he recalls as a genial grandfather.
25:50 – 29:02 TRANSCRIPT
When you were a child that were you temperamentally a rebel, so to speak?
Yes, I would say I was. Because we were brought up very strictly, my father had been trained in the, in the Navy, where the discipline is very rigorous. And I think he had it in his mind that that was the best way to bring up his children.
Interesting said that your father, whom you describe as being very strict, was such a different character from your grandfather. He was.
My grandfather was strict too. But I see he didn’t become King until he was 16 when Victoria never allowed him to see any of the state papers, and so he became the leader of London society and the pleasant life of those days.
That was his compensation for not having that right. But
tell he was he was very good king that he, in the news, foreign politics very well.
When you look back on your youth set, do you think you got a suitable education for becoming a king?
I think for the time during that time that I was being educated, I think probably it was quite suitable. I was raised in somewhat restricted training of the Navy. I went to Oxford for two years, not being very bookish, I never got my degree, although one year was cut short, and I said that I didn’t get a degree because the wall and the wall. But the wall was very restricting to four years, all we had to concentrate on was the waging of the wall. I was then in the army. And now in retrospect, I’m sure that my great nephew, Charles, present Prince of Wales, from his days in school, he went to school in Australia. And he’s been at Cambridge for two or three years, I would think that he’s not going out into the world to do his job. Far better equipped than I was that time.
Would you describe yourself as a reforming King? When you occupied the throne?
No, no, I wouldn’t. I wanted to be an up to date King. I didn’t have that much time to
know. And you didn’t have as it were, you didn’t have political conceptions about how the country had lots
of political perception and kept them to myself. That is the tradition of the royal family.
What were the things that you wanted to change? Could you give me some examples, some examples of the ways in which you ran up against the conventions?
I didn’t have time I wasn’t there long enough. But I had in mind to change, especially to do with the with the court which after all, the court is dominated by by the king and he influences the court and gives the orders its command so to speak.
25:50 – 29:02 SUMMARY
The interviewer asks if the King was a rebel as a child, and he says he was due to his strict upbringing. They discuss the differences between the King’s father and grandfather, and the King says his education was suitable for the time, but his great nephew, the current Prince of Wales, is better equipped for the job. The King denies being a reforming king and says he kept his political perceptions to himself, as is the tradition of the royal family. He wanted to change things at the court, but didn’t have enough time to do so.
Could you summaries in 100 words the following text: This is a first interview with Mimi Feingold Real for the Bay Area Women in Politics Oral History Project. The interview is being conducted by Amanda Tewes on February 9, 2021. And Ms. Real joins me in this remote interview from Mill Valley, California, and I am in Walnut Creek, California. So thank you so much for meeting with me today, Mimi. 01-00:00:23 Real: Delighted. 01-00:00:25 Tewes: Starting at the very beginning: can you tell us when and where you were born? 01-00:00:30 Real: Okay, I was born in Brooklyn, New York, on May 31, 1941. 01-00:00:37 Tewes: And did you grow up in Brooklyn? 01-00:00:40 Real: I grew up in Brooklyn, I lived in Brooklyn. I didn’t leave there until I went to college. But basically, I guess right after I was born my parents were living in an apartment, but they moved within the first couple of years to the house that I grew up in. I hesitated at the word house, because it was what in San Francisco would be called a pair of flats, and that isn’t the term that was used. There was a two-family house, so we occupied the upstairs, and the owner of the building occupied downstairs. But yes, that is where I grew up. 01-00:01:32 Tewes: That is really interesting, the regional difference between the housing styles. 01-00:01:33 Real: Yes, yes. 01-00:01:35 Tewes: Can you tell me a little bit more about what it was like growing up in Brooklyn in the forties and fifties? 01-00:01:43 Real: Well, on one level it was very ordinary. This was a fairly residential neighborhood, tree-lined streets. We could play maybe not out in the middle of the street, but play on the sidewalk, sometimes even in the street. It was primarily a middle-class neighborhood, and in those days we weren’t even aware of these things, but it was predominantly white. And also, more important to my identification, it was predominantly Jewish—as was a good deal of Brooklyn and a good deal of New York in those days. But again, it was just something that you breathed in with the air. You went to the little shopping neighborhood nearby, and on practically every street there was a Oral History Center, The Bancroft Library, University of California, Berkeley 2 Copyright © 2022 by The Regents of the University of California kosher butcher, and there was a Jewish delicatessen every couple of blocks. There were elements of a much smaller city. We didn’t feel like we were part of some great, big, huge urban sprawl with all kinds of problems
This is a transcript of an interview between Mimi Feingold Real and Amanda Tewes for the Bay Area Women in Politics Oral History Project. Real was born in Brooklyn, New York, in 1941, and grew up in a middle-class, predominantly Jewish neighborhood. She lived in a two-family house where her family occupied the upstairs, and the owner of the building occupied the downstairs. Real shares her experience of growing up in Brooklyn in the forties and fifties, where it was an ordinary and residential neighborhood with tree-lined streets, and every street had a kosher butcher and a Jewish delicatessen.
Could you summaries in 200 words the following text: s: This is a first interview with Mimi Feingold Real for the Bay Area Women in Politics Oral History Project. The interview is being conducted by Amanda Tewes on February 9, 2021. And Ms. Real joins me in this remote interview from Mill Valley, California, and I am in Walnut Creek, California. So thank you so much for meeting with me today, Mimi. 01-00:00:23 Real: Delighted. 01-00:00:25 Tewes: Starting at the very beginning: can you tell us when and where you were born? 01-00:00:30 Real: Okay, I was born in Brooklyn, New York, on May 31, 1941. 01-00:00:37 Tewes: And did you grow up in Brooklyn? 01-00:00:40 Real: I grew up in Brooklyn, I lived in Brooklyn. I didn’t leave there until I went to college. But basically, I guess right after I was born my parents were living in an apartment, but they moved within the first couple of years to the house that I grew up in. I hesitated at the word house, because it was what in San Francisco would be called a pair of flats, and that isn’t the term that was used. There was a two-family house, so we occupied the upstairs, and the owner of the building occupied downstairs. But yes, that is where I grew up. 01-00:01:32 Tewes: That is really interesting, the regional difference between the housing styles. 01-00:01:33 Real: Yes, yes. 01-00:01:35 Tewes: Can you tell me a little bit more about what it was like growing up in Brooklyn in the forties and fifties? 01-00:01:43 Real: Well, on one level it was very ordinary. This was a fairly residential neighborhood, tree-lined streets. We could play maybe not out in the middle of the street, but play on the sidewalk, sometimes even in the street. It was primarily a middle-class neighborhood, and in those days we weren’t even aware of these things, but it was predominantly white. And also, more important to my identification, it was predominantly Jewish—as was a good deal of Brooklyn and a good deal of New York in those days. But again, it was just something that you breathed in with the air. You went to the little shopping neighborhood nearby, and on practically every street there was a Oral History Center, The Bancroft Library, University of California, Berkeley 2 Copyright © 2022 by The Regents of the University of California kosher butcher, and there was a Jewish delicatessen every couple of blocks. There were elements of a much smaller city. We didn’t feel like we were part of some great, big, huge urban sprawl with all kinds of problems. 01-00:03:06 There was a park nearby, Prospect Park, which is Brooklyn’s equivalent of Central Park, and we used to go there all the time for a variety of things. In the summer, there was a lake and you could rent paddleboats and go out on the lake. In the winter, there were little hills, and we used to pull our sleds over there and sled down the hills. Prospect Park was one of our hangouts. And then close by to Prospect Park was the Brooklyn Botanic Gardens, and we also spent a lot of time there. Gorgeous, gorgeous flowering cherry trees. It was a gift of Japan. It’s still there to this day, and it is still one of the great prides of Brooklyn. But my mother always used to take us every spring when the cherry blossoms were in bloom, and we’d walk up Cherry Lane and admire the beautiful blossoms. That would be about the time—and even earlier than that—some of the very, very earliest of the bulb flowers would come up, little bluebells, and then after that daffodils. And so we’d go to the Brooklyn Botanic Gardens to look at those. 01-00:04:35 And then sort of right across the street or very nearby to both of those parks was the Brooklyn Zoo, and I spent a fair amount of time in the Brooklyn Zoo, also. Which I do have to say is—I’m thinking about it now—it may be that some of my earliest social justice feelings were born in that zoo, because I always felt very, very sorry for the animals. And this was a very old-fashioned zoo, so they were mostly—they weren’t in cages, but they were in fairly small enclosures, and it was obviously very artificial. I remember writing a story when I was in elementary school about how a magic spell descended, and the animals all were released, and the human beings were all put in the zoo enclosures. So I obviously felt some stirring of something at the time. 01-00:05:42 And then I went to public school in Brooklyn. Well, I went to a public elementary school. The schools in New York City, at least at that time— thereby avoiding this problem that San Francisco seems to be having with its schools—the New York City schools were not named, at least the elementary schools; they were all numbered. I went to P.S. 241, and there was nothing strange about that. I have very fond memories of that school. And that was, at the time, one of the few remaining K-8 schools in New York. New York was just in the process, at that moment, of transitioning to junior highs. And junior high school in New York at that time was seventh, eighth, and ninth grade, so then you entered high school in tenth grade, which was a little bit weird. But I didn’t go through that because P.S. 241 was K-8, so I graduated from eighth grade and then went into high school in ninth grade. And then, of course, when tenth grade came around, our class just blew up in size—probably more than doubled in size as all the kids from the K-6 schools came pouring in. Oral History Center, The Bancroft Library, University of California, Berkeley 3 Copyright © 2022 by The Regents of the University of California 01-00:07:25 But anyway, I went from P.S. 241 to Erasmus Hall High School, which at that time was one of the best academic high schools in the city. It wasn’t a specialized school. It was just a regular public high school, but in large part because of the demographics of the area that it covered, it pulled from a lot of middle class and also a lot of Jewish neighborhoods. It tended to have a fairly bright student body and it tended to offer a fairly rigorous curriculum. There was a kind of a triangle of three schools: there was Erasmus, Midwood [High School], and Madison [High School], and all three were excellent, excellent regular public high schools. We weren’t talking, at this point, about the Bronx High School of Science or something. These were just regular neighborhood high schools, but they all had great reputations. Kids could graduate from those schools and go to really good universities, and they came out with just a superb education. 01-00:08:46 Erasmus was probably the most diverse of the three schools, because we pulled from a number of different neighborhoods, but it was also—and this again was politically correct, and it was the way things were done in New York at the time—Erasmus was what they called [makes air quotes] tracked. In other words, there was a college-bound academic track, and then there was a kind of an intermediate track, and then there was—I can’t remember what they called it, but it was the kids who took shop and who had no intentions of going beyond high school and going to college. Vocational, that’s the word I was trying to think
This is a transcript of an interview with Mimi Feingold Real for the Bay Area Women in Politics Oral History Project conducted by Amanda Tewes on February 9, 2021. Real was born in Brooklyn, New York, on May 31, 1941, and grew up in a middle-class neighborhood in Brooklyn, which was predominantly Jewish. She describes her childhood as ordinary and notes that they had a park nearby, Prospect Park, which was Brooklyn’s equivalent of Central Park. She mentions that the Brooklyn Botanic Gardens was close to the park, and her mother used to take them there every spring to admire the cherry blossoms. Real also mentions that she spent a fair amount of time at the Brooklyn Zoo, which was old-fashioned and made her feel sorry for the animals.
Real attended public school in Brooklyn, and her elementary school was named P.S. 241. She has fond memories of her time there. Real notes that New York City schools were not named at that time; they were all numbered, and this prevented the problem that San Francisco was having with its schools. The interview provides insight into Real’s childhood and the cultural and social environment in which she grew up.
Could you summaries in 150 words the following text: —and that that must have shaped the stories about your early life. Did your family have stories about this time or what that meant for the community? 01-00:10:09 Real: You know what, that’s an interesting question, because the simple answer to that is no. My parents—my father, [Abraham Feingold], was too old at that point to have been drafted. I think the major impact was something that I never even was consciously aware of, and that is that my mother’s obstetrician, who should have delivered me, was drafted, was sent off to serve in the Army as an Army medic, and so she, [Elizabeth French Feingold], was turned over to another doctor. So it was some other doctor that she didn’t really know who delivered me. And the other thing, because I was too young—I was a baby, you know, I was a toddler—the thing I do remember Oral History Center, The Bancroft Library, University of California, Berkeley 4 Copyright © 2022 by The Regents of the University of California were the signs. There were signs indicating where there were bomb shelters or—and I don’t even remember now what the signs said, but I can remember various shapes. Like there was one sign that had a big triangle on it, and most of the signs were yellow with black printing, but I was too young to even read. So that’s the only impact that I can remember. 01-00:11:29 Tewes: Well then of course, years later more discussion comes out about the Holocaust, and that part of World War II. Was that something that impacted your family thinking about—as a Jewish family? 01-00:11:44 Real: Again, you know, it’s really interesting—again, the simple answer to that is no. Because we didn’t have any—aha, I know why. We didn’t have any family that lived in Germany or even in Eastern Europe. And to the extent—my father came from—was born in Russia before the revolution, before the Russian Revolution. He was born in the Ukraine, but his family managed to escape when he was only seven years old. So he had family in Russia, but the story had been that during World War II, in anticipation of the German occupation and the German invasion of the Soviet Union, a lot of the people in the Ukraine were relocated to the other side of the Ural Mountains, and that included my father’s family. He had managed to keep in touch with them. He had actually, I think, gone back to visit them in—before he met my mother, back in the 1920s or 1930s. By the time of the war, he had lost touch with all of them, because they had all been relocated. Again, that’s the family lore. 01-00:13:24 And even then, I guess there were mass, mass murders in the Soviet Union, but whether any relatives of mine were victims of that, I don’t know. So I guess I always knew about the Holocaust. I don’t remember it being a big thing that my parents talked about. They were more concerned with what was happening in this country. 01-00:13:56 Tewes: [laughs] Yes, and I do want to get to that. 01-00:14:00 Real: And also, my mother was not Jewish, so—and again, that was—I was always aware of that, but it was never something that was bad. It just was. And interestingly enough, my father’s father, who was an Orthodox Jew to his dying day, when his health deteriorated and his wife had already passed away, he came to live with us. He had three sons, and of the three sons, the only one who would take him in was the one with the non-Jewish wife, which I always thought was interestingly ironic. And so he
In this text, the interviewee is asked about her family’s experiences during World War II and the Holocaust. The interviewee states that her father was too old to be drafted, and the only impact she remembers was seeing signs for bomb shelters as a toddler. Her family did not have any stories or discussions about the Holocaust because they did not have any family in Germany or Eastern Europe, and her father’s family had been relocated to the other side of the Ural Mountains in anticipation of the German invasion. Although she knew about the Holocaust, it was not a big topic of discussion in her family, who were more concerned with what was happening in the United States. Interestingly, the interviewee’s mother was not Jewish, but her father’s father, who was Orthodox Jewish, came to live with their family in his old age, despite his other sons being unwilling to take him in.
Could summaries in 200 words the following text: Thank you, that’s good background. I think now is a good time to ask you, for the record: what was your given name, your birth name? Oral History Center, The Bancroft Library, University of California, Berkeley 5 Copyright © 2022 by The Regents of the University of California 01-00:15:06 Real: Okay, so my birth name is Miriam, and I was named for the biblical Miriam. But I was almost never called Miriam, even as a young child. The only times “Miriam” was ever used was when I was about to be disciplined, and my father would call me over. You know, “Miriam, come here.” And I would associate “Miriam” with being in big trouble about something, so that there was an assortment of family nicknames. But by the time I got to elementary school and high school, I was—actually, the way New Yorkers pronounced M-I-M-I, at least at that time, was “Mihmee,” so I was “Mihmee” all the way through high school. And then the story there is that another girl from my class at Erasmus was also accepted at Swarthmore [College], and her name was also Miriam. And her nickname, of course, was “Mihmee.” And she descended upon me and said that here we were going to this small college, and it was high time that we distinguished ourselves, so one of us had to be— could stay “Mihmee,” and the other one had to be “Meemee.” It was clear, by the way she said it as to who was going to be “Mihmee.” So that’s how I became Mimi. [laughs] So from college on, I was “Meemee” and she remained “Mihmee.” And I don’t know what ever happened to her. [laughs] 01-00:16:56 Tewes: But it seems to have worked out. You already started speaking a bit about your parents and your family, and I was wondering if you could just tell me a little bit more about them and their backgrounds, and then of course their livelihoods? 01-00:17:09 Real: Let’s start with the livelihood, because that’s the easiest one, and that is more or less how they met. My father, at that time when they met and married—and for most of my young childhood—was a high school math teacher. He taught primarily at a school called Manual Training High School—I don’t even know if that’s still in existence—in New York. My mother had majored in college in English, and through a very, very sweet line of reasoning that she went through, she wanted to do something that was useful and that would help people, and at the same use her English background. She made two lists: one of them of how to use the English background, and the other was how to be useful. Apparently, the only element on each—that was on both lists was librarian, so she became a librarian. And then she worked for many years as a high school librarian, also in Brooklyn, and that is how she met my father. I don’t think she was at the same school, although I’m not absolutely positive. But I think they met at a party, you know, some sort of a get-together of teachers. Anyway, they hit it off and decided to marry, much to the distress of both of their sets of parents, but they went ahead with it anyway. 01-00:18:52 The other major important thing to know about them is that from fairly early on, for both of them in their adulthood, they had become very progressive and left wing in their thinking. And I don’t know exactly when they joined the Communist Party, but they were members of the Communist Party, which at Oral History Center, The Bancroft Library, University of California, Berkeley 6 Copyright © 2022 by The Regents of the University of California that time was not—did not carry the stigma that it carries today. Obviously, they were still very much outsiders and radicals. But what the communists were in that period, where it was a period of pretty much political conformity, the communists were some of the only people who were fighting for social justice, who were fighting for civil liberties and civil rights. Communists founded, or were members of, a whole range of organizations, which would later get smeared with the name of communist front. But they were not trying to overthrow the government of the United States by force and violence; they were not trying to eliminate capitalism. The Communist Party internationally, at that time, as I understand it, had moved away from that agenda, from the agenda of world revolution, to working
In this oral history interview, the interviewee, Real, discusses her birth name, which is Miriam. However, she explains that she was almost never called by her given name, except when her father was about to discipline her. Instead, she was given various family nicknames, but when she attended high school in New York, her classmates pronounced “M-I-M-I” as “Mihmee,” which became her nickname all the way through college. Real recounts a humorous story about how she became known as “Meemee” in college, after another girl from her high school class who was also named Miriam insisted that they distinguish themselves. Real then shares information about her parents’ backgrounds and livelihoods. Her father was a high school math teacher, and her mother was a librarian who had majored in English. Both of them became progressive and left-wing in their thinking and joined the Communist Party, which was fighting for social justice, civil liberties, and civil rights at that time. Real explains that the Communist Party did not have the same stigma as it does today, and they were not trying to overthrow the government or eliminate capitalism.
